| Summary: | To add some new variants for Myamar keyboar | ||
|---|---|---|---|
| Product: | xkeyboard-config | Reporter: | Thura Hlaing <thurahlaing06> |
| Component: | General | Assignee: | xkb |
| Status: | RESOLVED MOVED | QA Contact: | |
| Severity: | enhancement | ||
| Priority: | medium | CC: | simos.bugzilla, sorlok_reaves, wunnakoko |
| Version: | unspecified | Keywords: | NEEDINFO |
| Hardware: | All | ||
| OS: | All | ||
| Whiteboard: | |||
| i915 platform: | i915 features: | ||
| Attachments: | Two Keyboard Layouts for Myanmar | ||
Zawgyi is used by many people but it is not a ISO standard. Zawgyi also violates international accepted assignment of code points. So, the international software project should not accept the violated technology. Myanmar3 is just a font. Not a keyboard. A font is different from keyboard. The keyboard layout added to the international software should be Unicode compliant standard. > Zawgyi is used by many people but it is not a ISO standard. Zawgyi also > violates international accepted assignment of code points. Not being ISO standard is not a crime. Could you please elaborate more on the "code points"? > Myanmar3 is just a font. Not a keyboard. A font is different from keyboard. Ghm, how happened that the codes are different? > The keyboard layout added to the international software should be Unicode > compliant standard. Ideally - yes. Or, possibly, use X keysyms. But you're right - I do not want to commit any layouts which would use local encodings (other than Unicode or X keysyms). (In reply to comment #2) > > Zawgyi is used by many people but it is not a ISO standard. Zawgyi also > > violates international accepted assignment of code points. > Not being ISO standard is not a crime. Could you please elaborate more on the > "code points"? > > > Myanmar3 is just a font. Not a keyboard. A font is different from keyboard. > Ghm, how happened that the codes are different? > > > The keyboard layout added to the international software should be Unicode > > compliant standard. > Ideally - yes. Or, possibly, use X keysyms. But you're right - I do not want to > commit any layouts which would use local encodings (other than Unicode or X > keysyms). > Great. I think your answer already cleared your question on "Could you please elaborate more on the "code points"?" Zawgyi is just an encoding used by their own group. It is just a local encoding used by one group of people. On code points. Zawgyi replaced the code points for ethnic Myanmar scripts by putting their own script. Zawgyi does not include any rendering system which is necessity for Myanmar script. Instead of rendering system, it replaces the glyphs with the code points for ethnic Myanmar scripts. Unicode Standard fonts and keyboards, for Burmese (Myanmar) scripts, are used by OpenOffice.org now. It can be referred at my.openoffice.org. is there any way to "port" Zawgyi layout to proper unicode? I mean - using codes from U1000 to U109F ? (In reply to comment #4) > is there any way to "port" Zawgyi layout to proper unicode? I mean - using > codes from U1000 to U109F ? > Exactly there is way to "port". But the reordering system will be needed. A number of keys can be eliminated. So, it will be more complex than simply redesign using Zawgyi layout as a base. The Unicode compliant input method for Burmese (on Linux) with SCIM is available at http://www.thanlwinsoft.org/ThanLwinSoft/Downloads/#keyboards Zawgyi is just an encoding used by their own group. It is just a local encoding used by one group of people. On code points. Zawgyi replaced the code points for ethnic Myanmar scripts by putting their own script. Zawgyi does not include any rendering system which is necessity for Myanmar script. Instead of rendering system, it replaces the glyphs with the code points for ethnic Myanmar scripts. Ok, thanks Ko Wunna for the explanation ... For the techincal part, being a first-year student , so I don't understand much .. I know there is a lot of wars going on with the use of Zawgyi. Despite that, zawgyi is getting more and more popular. It is obvious we cannot live without zawgyi. Almost every blog on the web use Zawgyi. As far as I concerned, every chatter use Zawgyi. Look at the two myanmar wikis, http://my.wikipedia.org/wiki/ uses unicode compliant font. http://wikimyanmar.org/wiki/index.php uses Zawyi font. The first one got only 680 articles, though it started earlier. The latter got 1270 articels. Ko Wunna, if I use " The Unicode compliant input method for Burmese (on Linux) with SCIM " for chatting with my friends, can Myanmar fonts appear correctly on their machines or they also need to install it. Most Myanmar use Internet on cybercafes, so they don't have administrative privileges and it is not possible for them to install. I am not saying to ignore ethnic Myanmar scripts and use Zawgyi. But , ..... I have no idea and I got no option to use Zawgyi as long as others are using it. > Myanmar3 is just a font. Not a keyboard. A font is different from keyboard. Ghm, how happened that the codes are different? What about Myanmar 3 ? If Myanmar 3 is just a font, is it possible to use it without adding new layout for it ( with the default xkb layout ) ? > Ok, thanks Ko Wunna for the explanation ... > For the techincal part, being a first-year student , so I don't understand much > .. Well, may be it is time to start learning and finally port Zawgyi to Unicode? I guess people would appreciate that:) > Despite that, zawgyi is getting more and more popular. That's grand. I absolutely do not mind that. We had same in Russia - local 8-bit encodings were popular but still none of them made way to xkeyboard-config. Only X symbols were used (mapped to 8-bit locales when necessary). What is the most popular linux locale in Myanmar, actually? > It is obvious we cannot live without zawgyi. > Almost every blog on the web use Zawgyi. > As far as I concerned, every chatter use Zawgyi. If we're talking about font - it is irrelevant to our current discussion. If we're talking about way to input those characters, the Zawgyi->Unicode port might be the choice. PS I just found http://www.mandalayalpha.com/. They mention "Zawgyi Unicode" font. Does it mean there is a way to make Zawgyi Unicode-compliant somehow? > What is the most popular linux locale in Myanmar, actually? Well, to be honest, I don't know. I just swiched from windows 4 months ago. I think Linux ( linux distros ) don't have Myanmar localization. >> It is obvious we cannot live without zawgyi. >> Almost every blog on the web use Zawgyi. >> As far as I concerned, every chatter use Zawgyi. >If we're talking about font - it is irrelevant to our current discussion. If >we're talking about way to input those characters, the Zawgyi->Unicode port >might be the choice. Sorry , my mistake. For the porting it is out of my knowledge. >PS I just found http://www.mandalayalpha.com/. They mention "Zawgyi Unicode" >font. Does it mean there is a way to make Zawgyi Unicode-compliant somehow? I am not sure about it. But, I think it is not, as they got the same layout with Zawgyi. > I think Linux ( linux distros ) don't have Myanmar localization. Is there a Linux community in Myanmar? Would it be possible to ask people's opinion (poll perhaps)? > I am not sure about it. But, I think it is not, as they got the same layout > with Zawgyi. May be, there are some people who'd know your language well enough to help us with that issue and participate in porting Zawgyi layout to Unicode? Ko Wunna perhaps? >Is there a Linux community in Myanmar? Would it be possible to ask people's >opinion (poll perhaps)? As far as I know, no dedicated community for linux but linux user groups in online communities ... it is possible to ask people's opinion ... >May be, there are some people who'd know your language well enough to help us >with that issue and participate in porting Zawgyi layout to Unicode? Ko Wunna >perhaps? Yeah, that would be great ... (In reply to comment #9) > Is there a Linux community in Myanmar? Would it be possible to ask people's > opinion (poll perhaps)? > There was a Myanmar Linux User (MLU) group as a special interest group. I am not sure it is still active or not. I will invite to discuss here who has interest in Unicode Technology and Myanmar Language Processing and also was/is a member of MLU group. >PS I just found http://www.mandalayalpha.com/. They mention "Zawgyi Unicode" font. Does it mean there is a way to make Zawgyi Unicode-compliant somehow? "Zawgyi Unicode" is just a sale pitch. Zawgyi map their glyphs to Unicode area where Myanmar ethnic scripts are encoded. > > I am not sure about it. But, I think it is not, as they got the same layout > > with Zawgyi. > May be, there are some people who'd know your language well enough to help us > with that issue and participate in porting Zawgyi layout to Unicode? Ko Wunna > perhaps? I will be happy to help in porting Zawgyi layout to Unicode. But I think the question is Zawgyi is popular. So, people like Thura wants to port Unicode keyboard to Zawgyi. >I will be happy to help in porting Zawgyi layout to Unicode. But I think the
>question is Zawgyi is popular. So, people like Thura wants to port Unicode
>keyboard to Zawgyi.
That's kind of true, if possible. ;P .
I would be happy if you can port Zawgyi to unicode with quite similar layout ( I know it is not possible to have the same layout with unicode )
And what about Myanmar 3 Layout? Since it is Unicode- compliant, can we can add this layout to xkb/symbols/mm as variant for the coming X11 versions ?
I think the two strong communities on open-source and Myanmar I18n are http://www.mmgeeks.org/forum/ http://groups.google.com/group/burmeselanguagepack I have posted already to the second, if someone can contact the mmgeeks forum it would be great. As far as I know, the issue with Burmese and Unicode was that only recently (Unicode 5.1) did some essential characters get included. Are these critical to use in a new layout? There is a Zawgyi Unicode version of the font, and is the one that is used in most of the websites. The proposed layout in the attachment above is a Unicode layout (it references U1xxx, which is the Myanmar Unicode block). I think the issue is really about 'is the Unicode text generated with the layout and represented with Zawgyi Unicode, correct Unicode text?'. This is a discussion to do at the Myanmar community, reach a conclusion, and come back with a layout. Thanks Simos. That is exactly what I'd like to see here - that kind of conclusion It had been submitted to http://www.mmgeeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=1108 the MMgeeks forum. Thanks Simos Hello everyone. I'm the developer of scim-waitzar, a Burmese IME for SCIM: http://scim-waitzar.googlecode.com/ I have a little bit of knowledge in this area, so allow me to respond to your comments. (In reply to comment #13) > Are these critical to use in a new layout? Yes. Unicode 5.0 + UTN 11 were just about right for Myanmar; however, Unicode 5.1 really solidified the encoding. In particular, the encoding of the "kinzi" combination, and the dis-unification of "virama" and "asat" are two examples of very important decisions specific to Unicode 5.1. > "Is the Unicode text generated with the layout and represented with Zawgyi Unicode, correct Unicode text?" Absolutely not. The term "Zawgyi Unicode" is more of a marketing construct. Before the Zawgyi-One font came into existence, Burmese used the Win Innwa font, which re-mapped ASCII letters to Myanmar letters. Since modern Burmese uses a lot of non-transliterated English words ("Windows", "program", "forum"), it is very frustrating to have the text turn to gibberish if the font is not set properly. Zawgyi-One used most of the Myanmar Unicode block correctly, but it completely over-wrote the upper block (U+1050 and on) with variant symbols which are now handled by ligatures in Padauk, Myanmar3, and Parabaik. The problem became all the more poignant when Unicode 5.1 allocated the upper block to Shan, Mon, and other minority scripts. Zawgyi-One is not correct, not in the least. And, the term "Zawgyi Unicode" is really just used to promote Zawgyi-One. It means that Zawgyi-One uses the U+1000 block, not that it uses the proper specification of Unicode. On a final note, I've seen some tests which re-map Zawgyi-One into a valid Unicode 5.1 font, with ligatures. The Zawgyi-One font has excellent shape hinting, so it'd be a shame to simply discard the font for its encoding. Perhaps Alpha Mandalay will release a "Zawgyi-Two" like this; I'm only speculating. My own advice is to separate input from output; see below: http://www.mmgeeks.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=83&t=1108 Hope that clears up some questions, -->Seth Seth, Thanks for your comments! The idea to separate input and output seems sane. So, from that perspective - would it be possible to have "Zawgyi-like" variant using proper Unicode instead of broken Zawgyi encoding? (In reply to comment #17) > Seth, > Thanks for your comments! The idea to separate input and output seems sane. So, > from that perspective - would it be possible to have "Zawgyi-like" variant > using proper Unicode instead of broken Zawgyi encoding? Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. This way, people can use the variant they like, and can still output proper unicode. There's another benefit: * If you are typing in Unicode, but you need to OUTPUT an older encoding (if, say, you are posting to your blog in Zawgyi encoding, or an email to a relative in Win Innwa encoding) you can simply "swap" the output encoding. > Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking. This way, people can use the variant
> they like, and can still output proper unicode.
So... Looking forward to getting a patch;)
(In reply to comment #19) > So... Looking forward to getting a patch;) Unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable in X, so someone else will have to patch it. Actually, the scim-waitzar plugin I wrote is fully separated. It supports output in 3 different formats. At the moment, there is only one input: WaitZar, but I am considering adding keyboard layouts in the future. Is this something you guys would be interested in having? > Unfortunately, I'm not knowledgeable in X, so someone else will have to patch > it. That's pity. It means the bug will remain hanging... > Actually, the scim-waitzar plugin I wrote is fully separated. It supports In xk-c we are trying to do things XKB way, so having working SCIM is kind of irrelevant;) > In xk-c we are trying to do things XKB way, so having working SCIM is kind of
> irrelevant;)
Understandably so; SCIM is a bit heavy for a simple variant.
Well, I'll read up on XKB. If you find anyone willing to do the technical work, I'd be happy to advise them on the details.
I will be happy to help. You can find me on IRC too (svu @ #xkbconfig @ Freenode) > Seth,
> Thanks for your comments! The idea to separate input and output seems sane. So,
> from that perspective - would it be possible to have "Zawgyi-like" variant
> using proper Unicode instead of broken Zawgyi encoding?
I don't have much knowledge in X, either ....
But, I can write keyboard layouts for xkb ... well, just the layouts ...
For the encoding part, I don't understand much, as I am still a geek ...
(In reply to comment #24) > But, I can write keyboard layouts for xkb ... well, just the layouts ... > For the encoding part, I don't understand much, as I am still a geek ... Ah, that's fine. I understand the encoding. Can you send me some links about learning xkb layouts? I am finding a hard time getting started. :) (In reply to comment #23) > I will be happy to help. You can find me on > IRC too (svu @ #xkbconfig @Freenode) Ok, I'll find my old IRC details later, and sign on. :) Just look at xk-c home page. There are some starting links. http://freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/XKeyboardConfig Actually, writing a layout is quite easy ... http://unicode.org/charts/PDF/U1000.pdf ( Myanmar Unicode 5.1 Chart ) http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/4620/keyboardii3.png ( XKB Keyboard Keys ) http://hektor.umcs.lublin.pl/~mikosmul/computing/articles/custom-keyboard-layouts-xkb.html.. Just Modify the X11/xkb/symbols/mm according to it ... BTW, the keyboard layout for MM3, which is in my attached file, is quite similar to Zawgyi ... also it is a unicode-compliant ... http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/874/mm3layoutkl3.jpg ( MM3 Layout ) http://lynnseck.googlepages.com/zawgyi_keyboard_map0.4.gif/zawgyi_keyboard_map0.4-full.jpg ( Zawgyi Layout ) It would be better to start by modifying it rather than the default one ... Thanks, both of you. I'll start with these links, and with the Myanmar3 layout. :) -- GitLab Migration Automatic Message -- This bug has been migrated to freedesktop.org's GitLab instance and has been closed from further activity. You can subscribe and participate further through the new bug through this link to our GitLab instance: https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xkeyboard-config/xkeyboard-config/issues/111. |
Use of freedesktop.org services, including Bugzilla, is subject to our Code of Conduct. How we collect and use information is described in our Privacy Policy.
Created attachment 20428 [details] Two Keyboard Layouts for Myanmar The default keyboard layout for myanmar in X 11 window system is not popular and common in Myanmar. Nobody uses that Layout. The most popular Keyboard Layout in Myanmar is " Zawgyi " ( Almost Everybody uses it ). Some People also uses " Myanmar 3 ". Before, I used to replace the keyboard layout file in /usr/share/X11/xkb/mm with the " zawgyi " layout. Then, as I also need to use Myanmar 3 layout, I tried to edit base.xml and base.lst to make those two layouts appear in Myanmar as variants. But it is very annoying and sometimes have a lot of problems. Some Linux distros have different designs for xkb ( For eg, in Ubuntu 8.10, I also need to edit endev.lst and endev.xml ) So, I am wandering if it is possible to add those two layouts in Myanmar Keyboard as variants by default in X 11, xkb data files. See the attachment for the two keyboard layouts.